The Filmmakers Who Want You to Remember What Louis C.K. Did

It has now been seven years since Louis C.K. was canceled. Or was he? In November 2017, The New York Times published a damning piece in which five women came forward accusing him of sexual misconduct. In the article, long-running rumors about the famed comedian’s behavior finally came to light, with his victims describing stories in which he masturbated in front of them or on the phone. Following years of denying such claims, a day after the Times exposé he admitted in a statement, “These stories are true.” In quick order, his movie I Love You, Daddy’s release was scrapped, his deal with FX (which had produced his groundbreaking, Emmy-winning series Louie) ended and his career was seemingly put on life-support. 

In that statement, C.K. said he would “step back and take a long time to listen.” But less than a year later, he was back on stage, offering no remorse for his actions. It was as if nothing had happened — well, except for the jokes he made about the Times article that made him sound like the victim. The successful comic/actor/filmmaker may have experienced a terrible fall, but he quickly rebounded, winning a Grammy for his 2020 stand-up album Sincerely Louis C.K. and enjoying a sold-out concert tour. For all the talk that C.K. had been “canceled” as part of the #MeToo movement, he’s doing just fine.

Filmmakers Caroline Suh and Cara Mones wondered what it meant that C.K. had returned to prominence in such fast fashion — and why people seem more consumed with debating what he’d done rather than focusing on his victims, who were up-and-coming comedians who suffered a vicious backlash for speaking the truth. The results of those inquiries is Sorry/Not Sorry, a despairing documentary, which comes out Friday, that recounts C.K.’s rise and fall and rise again, while also analyzing so-called cancel culture and the gender/power imbalance in the comedy world. 

Speaking to cultural critics like the Times’ Wesley Morris, the film also interviews women who came forward for the 2017 Times profile, such as Abby Schachner, to learn what happened to them after their accusations went public. Longtime C.K. critic Jen Kirkman, who endured creepy advances from him years ago, discusses the fallout she has gone through, while Parks and Recreation co-creator Michael Schur shares his conflicted feelings about casting C.K. on the show, even after online rumors began circulating about his bad behavior. Sorry/Not Sorry offers no definitive answers, but it asks a lot of questions about what we do with the Louis C.K.s amongst us.

Over Zoom on Wednesday, I spoke to Suh (who identifies as Gen-X) and Mones (who is a millennial) to hear more about their takeaways from making Sorry/Not Sorry. Below, we talk about cancel culture, what it was like to see C.K. perform at a sold-out Madison Square Garden in 2023 and what (if anything) he could do to win back former fans (like Suh) who are disappointed with his lack of contrition. 

Caroline, you were a fan of Louis C.K. before the New York Times article. How has your relationship to his comedy changed since that piece and the work you did on Sorry/Not Sorry?

Caroline Suh: I don’t know if you would call it suspension of disbelief, but something has changed (in) the way that I take in (his) comedy, whether or not the comedy has changed — I feel like it has, but I’m not a comedy expert. You have to buy into a comedian’s perspective — there’s some level of, I don’t know, likability, maybe. But you need to believe in the person, even if they’re flawed. That has changed for me.

Because you were a fan, is that why you approached Cara, who isn’t a fan and didn’t know his work, to make this documentary with you? Did you want those conflicting perspectives?

Suh: I think more of it was, I wanted a different generational perspective. I knew that my perspective was affected by my experience in the working world coming up — behavior that was normalized that, hopefully now, is not considered acceptable. That generational difference is something that is interesting to me. 

Cara and I had worked together a bunch in the past, and I knew she was super-smart — you want as many smart people in the room when you’re trying to work through a subject like this. It would be dangerous just to accept your own perspective without getting other input.

Cara Mones: I’m a generation younger but still, coming up in the film industry, (I) saw plenty of things that were problematic. I do feel like (those behaviors) were identified as troubling, but it was still transgressive to speak out, so we had a lot of overlap. 

I feel like the generational differences helped us with the push and pull of how to structure the film and the tone. Coming up with something that felt like we weren’t pandering or telling viewers how to feel is where all of us coming from a different perspective was useful. None of us want to be told how to feel, and I think that this is a difficult conversation where people can shut down. It helped us figure out a way where we could really let people speak at length and lay out the events.

In C.K.’s public statement, he said, “I have spent my long and lucky career talking and saying anything I want. I will now step back and take a long time to listen.” When he started doing stand-up again, he didn’t seem contrite, which disappointed and angered many of us. For argument’s sake, let’s say he did indeed do all this personal work on himself and from that grew and evolved — but decided he didn’t owe his stand-up audience insights into the growing process. Is that okay? Does he owe us those insights?  

Suh: I don’t look at it as that he owes anyone anything — well, aside from the women who came out in the New York Times article, that’s a separate thing which I can’t speak to because I’m not one of them. But I do think it’s fair for the audience to evolve in terms of their understanding of him and there’s going to be an effect. That’s where my real disappointment came, when I understood that he didn’t seem to have really any contrition. When I went to the show (where) he had the big “Sorry” sign behind him, it seemed like a big slap in the face to everyone who found what he did problematic. That’s when I lost a lot of respect, personally. So I don’t think he owes me, personally, anything as an audience member. But I’m free to change my opinion.

Mones: It’s understandable that fans would be disappointed with how he’s talked about this in his comedy since then. If you love an artist because you think that they are speaking honestly about their life, then that is part of his comedy. You come to expect a certain amount of candidness and (willingness) to talk about your mistakes — and I think that that was a missed opportunity. 

(Comedy journalist) Sean McCarthy says (in the film), “Is a comedian a truth-teller, or are they just a joke-teller?” That’s a question that I don’t have an answer for, but it’s something every viewer — every fan — has to decide for themselves.

Many powerful men were taken down by #MeToo, but comedians seem to be a unique case. We basically take it for granted that they’re weird and misanthropic — that they have all these insecurities and sexual hang-ups. Did that assumption help Louis C.K. for so long — people just assumed, “Eh, all comedians are weirdos”?

Suh: Speaking to people on background, I think that was part of it. Some comedians, or a lot of them, pride themselves on being transgressive, pushing the boundaries. Just an artist in general, it’s (assumed) you have to be outside of the box to really be brilliant. Probably he got a pass — as a lot of people, probably, did in his industry — for being brilliant and wacky. 

I’ve thought about that issue a lot, about (how) genius comes with severe flaws. But I still don’t know if that’s really true. But I do think that there’s the idea that comedians are not intimidating and powerful because they’re all introverts and weirdos, so (it’s assumed) they might not be able to have power in the same way that someone (like) a manager might have in a corporation.

Mones: It’s a small industry that it’s really hard to be successful in — especially as a woman. I think that Louis and the people around him were powerful in hiring people, so when there’s (a rumor about him) that doesn’t necessarily have names attached, it’s easy to put it out of your mind. If you’re working in this industry and there aren’t names (attached to accusations), you can just say, “Well, I don’t know if that’s true.” Like Mike Schur (who hired C.K. on Parks and Recreation after rumors about him started circulating) says (in the documentary), “Well, this isn’t my problem.” I’m sure that that was also a part of it — and he’s hiring. So many people, it’s in your best interest to just keep your head down and work.

Schur comes across as feeling guilty and ashamed in the documentary. Did you sense that he wanted you to forgive him for what he’d felt he’d done? 

Suh: I had COVID and Cara wasn’t on the project yet, so actually Kathleen Lingo, who is a producer from The New York Times, did that interview, so I can’t speak to what the feeling was in the room. The way I look at it is that he’s a stand-in for all of us — or a lot of us — who would probably make those same decisions in that situation at that time. Hindsight is 20/20, so I might say, “Oh, I wouldn’t have done that. I would have gone and made a stand.” But I’m very sympathetic to his position because I would have done the same thing, I’m sure.

Sorry/Not Sorry delves into the whole question of artists being “canceled.” At this point, haven’t we all decided that “being canceled” is a golden ticket to drumming up fans who will flock to support you? C.K. has won Grammys, he’s selling out arenas — “cancellation” has been great for him.

Suh: The comedian Aida Rodriguez said to us she would love to be canceled because that means that you’re suddenly making much more money and much more popular. In this day and age of polarization and people feeling very black-and-white about certain things, it can be a rallying cry for aggrieved people: “I’ve been wronged.” You’ll get a lot of sympathy and support for that. 

Mones: It feels like the easy way out. People are screaming about “I’ve been canceled” — or it was fair or it wasn’t fair — but then we’re missing the whole rest of the conversation. What does accountability look like? What do we actually need from this person to move forward? And also, who are the people that were impacted by (this) behavior, and why are the people who are coming forward facing backlash? When we obsess over the individuals who we think should or should not be canceled, it absolves the rest of us — and the many people who enabled the behavior or ignored it.

Suh: We had the creeping realization making the film that the women in the film, people have tried to cancel them in various ways. In a way, they suffered more from that whole idea of cancellation than Louis, who still can sell out Madison Square Garden. People whose careers aren’t at his level yet, they don’t even get a chance.

Jen Kirkman spoke out about Louis C.K., and like with other accusers of famous men, the stupid online response is often, “Oh, you’re just trying to make a name for yourself — you’re just seeking publicity.” I don’t get the impression that her career has suddenly skyrocketed because she put herself out there.

Suh: We got the sense, too. The purpose of the film is to try and show all these very subtle, nuanced ways in which something that may not seem that bad to other people (really is). Like on Louis’ side, (the attitude is) “What’s the big deal? You weren’t physically touched.” That was my knee-jerk reaction when I first read the article: “Is this that big a deal?” I’ve seen stuff like this in the workplace. But the goal of the film is to show that there are these insidious ways in which that kind of behavior seeps in and is really damaging. 

For Jen, she says she wasn’t crying in the shower after any of these things happened to her, but then when she goes on a press tour for her work, people only want to talk about Louis. Maybe she won’t go on tour with him because she’s concerned — she doesn’t blame him for it, but she just doesn’t want to deal with whatever extracurricular things might be expected. The purpose of the film is to show how these things have a really corrosive impact on these women’s careers — and that it’s really hard to pivot from worrying about him to actually looking at those (women’s) stories. And why is that?

Is it because we as a society are fixated on famous people? Is it that the accusers are often less-famous and, therefore, not as “exciting” or “interesting” to us?

Suh: I think we’re invested in his story — especially with Louis, who blurred the lines between his real life and his performative life through his series and through his comedy. A lot of people feel invested in what happens to him. I think part of it is maybe people don’t care about women’s stories, still, as much as they do men’s — I hate to talk in generalizations, but I do think that’s part of it. People who you’ve never even gotten to know, how are you supposed to be invested in them? For Abby (Schachner), she left comedy for many reasons — one of which was what happened with Louis, but for other personal reasons — and we didn’t get to know her to be invested in her.

Mones: It’s the same in your personal life: If you know someone, or feel like you know someone, it’s hard to pivot and care about these (negative) things that you’re being told about that person. I think about that all the time: No matter what, whenever it feels like we’re attached to someone, it suddenly is (defensive voice), “Well, not this person that I know.” Whether it’s a celebrity or a friend or a coworker.

I think about a line at the end of the film from one of the attendees at the Madison Square Garden show. There’s a young man who says, “This is the amount of hypocrisy that I allow for myself.” You can see people suddenly become defensive about someone when, otherwise, they usually seem on the right side of things.

That line from the Louis C.K. fan stuck with me, too. I think it’s something we all wrestle with in so many aspects of life: What bad things are we okay with, and what bad things are we not okay with? So let me ask you: What do we do about Louis C.K.?

Suh: For me, it goes back to the hypocrisy thing. We all draw our line in different places. If you’re a fan (of) different artists, you choose for each specific circumstance how much you’re willing to accept — and also, how much your enjoyment has been tainted by knowing certain things about them. 

I personally wanted to understand how to think about this issue. I wanted to hear from smart people and think about, “Okay, how do I navigate this as a fan?” In the process of exploring that, you realize that the real stories we haven’t heard are from the women — those are the stories we should focus on. 

I guess the answer (about how to navigate those issues), what we came to in the film is that you just have to make the decision yourself — but you have to make a decision. You can’t just float through without questioning yourself from time to time. I used to love Michael Jackson — I really didn’t want to watch the Michael Jackson documentary because it didn’t serve my interests. A friend of mine said, “Once you watch the documentary, you can never listen to him again,” so I was like, “Okay, I’m not going to watch it for as long as I can.” And then I finally watch it, and then if his song comes on the radio, do I enjoy it? You’re making these deals with yourself along the way. And I guess we’re saying, “Maybe it’s good if you just look at them, examine them — maybe that’s something that would be helpful.”

Mones: Venues and other comedians are going to continue to invite Louis to perform — that, we can’t control. But as consumers, we’re making decisions when we buy tickets or want to watch something. There are all these other comedians out there whose work we could enjoy and support. 

I feel like the question of “What do we do about Louis?,” maybe we need to turn our attention to “Who are the people who we haven’t heard from yet who haven’t had a chance? Whose careers and voices are we most interested in protecting and hearing from?”

I’m Gen-X, and I feel like many people younger than me instantly wrote off Louis C.K. after The New York Times piece, whereas people my age and older were more willing to hold out hope that redemption and reconciliation was still possible. Cara, as a millennial, was that your experience as well?

Mones: When joining this project, I was like, “Why would we talk about him anymore? Why are we giving him more attention? Are we just giving him a platform?” After the 2017 article came out, I thought that I would never think about Louis again. But then I came to understand that there are all of these people for whom Louis’ story, and what he did, lives in the gray area. I realized why this conversation is still relevant — people are still asking these questions about him. So for me to think, “Oh, we don’t need to ever talk or think about him again” is a little bit naive.

Working on the project, I realized how many people in my personal life, of different generations, were asking similar questions to Caroline: “Was this so bad?” I thought that that generational divide would be more significant than it is — once you start to hear people’s honest opinions, I think that there are things that people are afraid to talk about. I’m still surprised — I’m like, “You’re my age, I thought you would feel differently.”

In retrospect, I wonder if the monstrousness of Harvey Weinstein’s bad acts helped create the conflict some people feel around Louis C.K. Once you read what Weinstein did, Louis’ transgressions pale in comparison — frankly, anyone’s does. 

Suh: One of my favorite things in the film is this thing Jen says. I’m going to paraphrase, so it won’t be as brilliant as the way she says it: “If you are looking on a scale of ‘Harvey Weinstein’ to ‘this,’ if you have to look at it that way…” Like, yeah, do we have to look at it that way? You could look at it from that perspective, but is it really that helpful?

Mones: Both behaviors can still be harmful. It’s easier to wrap your head around “Was this legal or illegal?” and then make your decision. “Is this fair behavior to subject someone to?” is the simple question worth asking.

This is a hypothetical, Caroline, but let’s say Louis’ next special does exactly what fans like us would have wanted all along. He owns up to what he did, takes us through the mindset of why he did these things and is really candid in the ways he was in the past. Even then, I don’t know how I would feel — are we supposed to forgive him if the comedy is well-performed?

Suh: I look at it less like I’m in a position to absolve anyone for anything they’ve done and more from the position of “If he truly was this progressive person on the right side of things, what would help move the ball forward? How might he be influential and change people’s opinions?” 

One thing he could have done, which I would have felt great about, is if he had said, “Don’t send hateful tweets to these people, because I did do these things — just leave them alone.” That, at a bare minimum, I would have been like, “Okay, I still like you, we have the same values.” 

Instead, (he said), “I lost $35 million in one night (after the Times article),” which seems, first of all, alienating to most people — like, “Oh, boo-hoo.” And then second of all, it’s showing just total self-absorption. If instead he had worked through this — if he had helped us understand it, and maybe given us the insights that we’re used to getting from him — I think I would have felt a lot more simpatico with him. But because he didn’t do that, it was more repellent.

Mones: I think having your friend Dave Chappelle talk about Abby over and over again in his special and saying nothing about it is cruel. 

There was someone that we spoke to that talked about how there’s the amends that you make in private and the amends you make in public. What forgiveness would have looked like or how he could make amends with all of the individuals involved, I don’t know the answer for that. But for the public, there was a hope that he would own this a little bit more. But it’s hard, because would it feel good if it felt like he was monetizing this experience? Maybe not. 

Cara, not being really familiar with his comedy, what do you think of his stand-up he did before the Times story? I’m really curious how it lands now for someone new to his work. 

Mones: I have a young son, so a lot of his jokes about kids, I got it. I understood why people thought that those jokes were funny — I could relate to it, and it was very honest. I understood, “Oh, he is speaking very honestly about something that people are afraid to say as parents. People don’t want to speak meanly about their kids out loud, and he is saying these things that probably many parents are thinking.” 

That was helpful for understanding why people got so attached. But I don’t find the humor in his current material, seeing how he talked about what had happened when he came back and presented what happened as a sexual kink or said that (victims) said, “Yes.” That was really disappointing.

Caroline, as a fan, what do you make of his post-Times comedy? 

Suh: We saw Sorry and I laughed half of the time. Some stuff I thought was really funny, and some stuff I thought was retrograde and weird. And then the (show) that Cara and I went to at MSG (in 2023), which was crazy — I’ve never been to a show like that where there are tens of thousands of people. It’s like a rock concert, and the energy in the room is crazy. I did not find one joke funny — I was trying, and I don’t know if I could, but I was trying to be as objective as possible. But there were some things — like with accents — (that) seemed like lower-level humor. I’m not a comedy expert, so I don’t really know, but it was not the same level to me, and I didn’t laugh.

I also wonder if the MSG audience played a part. Since the Times story, it seems that his audience has become more right-wing/anti-cancel-culture. It’s not the same crowd as he had during the Louie heyday. 

Suh: On background, there were men, women, lots of people on dates. On the surface, it didn’t look like a MAGA audience, and they were laughing heartily at every single joke. Someone said to us, on background, a comedian plays to (his) audience, so he’s obviously getting feedback and responding to it — or it seems that way. If they think these jokes are funny, they’re not the jokes that I find funny, so maybe it is a different audience.

The whole thing about him having a far-right audience I think is fascinating. I have no metrics to know if that’s true or not, but it seems like it might make sense if he’s drawing some anti-cancel-culture people because of that. But when we talked to people outside of the theater — the small sampling of people we spoke to — they weren’t hardcore anti-cancel-culture people. They were just indifferent, or “We don’t know all the details and we don’t really care. We just wanted to go and see a show, it’s Saturday night.”

Mones: I’d be curious what the breakdown of his audience is right now, because it did feel different being outside the theater and talking to people than it did inside. Being inside that arena, with thousands and thousands of people, and hearing some people laugh riotously at transphobic jokes makes you pause. It shakes you up a little bit. But as Caroline said, outside there were a lot of people who really hadn’t thought about Louis’ sexual misconduct since 2017. Or they’d read a couple of headlines, they couldn’t really remember what it was. We talked to some women who were there with their partners and they hadn’t really heard about it and they were just out for date night. That was surprising — we hadn’t expected so many people to just be there in a casual fashion. There are some people who just want to go out and see a good comedy show, and maybe they’re not thinking about all (these) other events around the comedian they’re seeing that night.

That’s my worry when watching Sorry/Not Sorry: Do most people even care?

Mones: Hopefully, having the chance to hear at length from some of the individuals who’d spoken out about Louis and had experienced some of this behavior, people will understand a little bit more the impact that sexual harassment has. And maybe in raising some questions you can also think about your personal life — like, I know for us, (we’re) constantly thinking about, “Are we speaking up enough? When have we been silent or enabled something or ignored something?” 

I like that the film brings up a lot of questions that are very universal, regardless of where you work or come from. Hopefully if it feels personal and you’re thinking about this in your own life, it might make you care a little bit more.